« Cafe Offers Heated Deal | Main | Tricky Perscription »

Comments

Bunky

I understand why the owners are upset; it is their private business and they should be able to act on their "morals and beliefs". But when their morals and beliefs include discriminating against people for not adhering to them, yeah, people gonna complain. My morals and beliefs include not turning away people who wish to purchase goods and services from a business. *shrug*

Nomnom

Your right to religious freedom ends where other people's rights begin. Religious freedom means your dumbass is allowed to believe whatever fool thing you want PERSONALLY and the government isn't going to kick your ass for it - so long as you leave well enough alone and don't do shit to other people. It does NOT mean that you get to kick other people's asses without impunity because they conflict with your "morals and beliefs". Your BUSINESS is NOT YOUR PERSONAL LIFE.

I get why the owners are mad, but that's because they seem to think their business should fall under the same rules as their personal life and the two are not the same. They need an attitude adjustment. If religion were not a factor in this it would be super fucking wrong - just because one side is playing the religion card DOESN'T MAKE IT LESS WRONG. Religion should not be a free pass to treat other people wrongly. (And ironically, most religions, if you're doing it right, are all about HOW TO NOT TREAT OTHER PEOPLE WRONGLY.)

Kay

While the owners are allowed to have their religious opinion, the way I see it, the bakery is not a religious business, therefore rejecting a customer based on a religious belief seems wrong. I am fine with churches being able to say they won't perform a same sex marriage if it conflicts with their religious beliefs, because it directly pertains to what the church is. Heck, I could even maybe forgive a kosher or halal bakery (sorry if I got those terms wrong). But to refuse someone simply because you disagree with a life choice they have made is wrong. That's like refusing to make a cake for someone's fifth wedding, because you think it's ridiculous to get married/divorced 5 times (personal peeve of mine)

BusinessMajor

Would there be the same hype if the situations were reversed? If a gay baker refused a hetero couple? Honestly, there's more hate and intolerance from the couple than from the bakers, and businesses do have a right to refuse service for any reason. We've all refused to deal with asshole crustys before, this is no different. Will we start forcing Jewish delis to serve ham because its discriminatory toward Gentiles? Go to a different business and get over yourselves.

Mr. Misanthropy

BusinessMajor, under the guidelines Oregon has set forth for public businesses, it would be considered the same level of discrimination. In re: the same amount of hype, considering this state, probably. I don't know if it would garner national attention, but you can bet it'd be news in Oregon.

Bug

We as Americans have a right to practice our freedoms to the point that it interferes with other's PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. If your religious beliefs include murder, freedom of religion does not apply because it interferes with others happiness and rights.

~Boring Soapbox~
Also, as a christian, I have done my research and nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about Homosexuality being wrong. Only in parts of the Bible written by the disciples does this come up. And for those of you who point at Sodom and Gomorrah....Look Those city's were destroyed for being thieves, murderers, rapists and overall nasty. Not that anyone in the city was gay. The tipping point was due to them wanting to RAPE angels. NOT being gay.

SomeRandomCashier

Let's start a business that refuses to sell anything to someone who is considered a sinner by Biblical definitions. To argue against it goes against my religious freedom! Religious freedom FTW! What's that, you say? It will never get customers because everyone is a sinner according to the Bible? Well, I guess it's time to get hypocritical and constitutionally illegal by deciding which sins are "worse" based on personal prejudices.

There was a time in which hetero couples were discriminated against, with just as much hatred and protesting. It was the 1960s, and it was based on race. It was equally wrong.

Chris

@BusinessMajor: "Will we start forcing Jewish delis to serve ham because its discriminatory toward Gentiles?" No, but we will force Jewish delis to serve bagels and lox (or whatever else is already on their menu) to Gentiles. By the same reasoning, a white-owned deli can't refuse to serve blacks and St. Mary's Hospital can't refuse to treat Muslims.

Unsympathetic

Agreeing with what everyone else said up above, but also noting a little bit of capitalist wisdom: You can run your business however you want, but that doesn't mean it has a right to succeed that way. If your service, product, or any other significant part of it is deemed unsavoury, then it's normal in our system for it to fail. Abercrombie is douche and doesn't supply plus sized clothes, so people don't want to go there, and sales have been falling. Same principle here: We don't like your business practices, so we will make sure not to support you. That simple.

People always forget that the other half of the whole "free speech" thing is that everyone around you is free to respond however they want (within legal reason).

Also, sympathy points lost for being a dick, but that's a personal standpoint.

CoG

I think these people are going to have a hell of a time running a bakery from their home. It's far more difficult to do than run it from a store front. While there are plenty of businesses that do run nicely from homes, food prep isn't one that transitions well in that way. I doubt this business will be around much longer.

Kitai

To echo some sentiments, no the business does not have the right to refuse to sell to the couple because of their sexuality. The owners of the business have the right to personally select their religion and hold the belief that homosexuality is morally wrong. But that is a personal belief. It has no place in the public entity that is their business.

When running their business they have the right to select which products and services to offer to the public. They do not have the right to select which members of the public those products and services are offered to so long as the members in question behave with respect to the business. A lesbian couple enterring a bakery and requesting a wedding cake is in itself not a disrespectful act, thus they cannot reasonably be denied their wedding cake.

To marry (see what I did there. :P) your faith to your business you must exercise the morals and beliefs of your faith in the selection of your goods and services. For example, if you hold strongly to the commandment "Thou Shalt have no other god before me" then as a bakery you could elect to refuse to produce and sell any wedding cake which includes a bride and groom topper, citing the topper as iconography (to yourself mind you, not publicly). If questioned on it simply state it's an "artistic choice" and that you cannot offer such a cake. Likewise, a Jewish bakery can elect to refuse to sell leavened bread products during the appropriate holiday. In both cases the owner's religious beliefs are expressed through their product selection, but that selection is made available to the entirety of the public.

ShadowBunny

The business owners are idiots. All they needed to say was "we're booked solid that week and won't be able to fill your order, try **** bakery down the road". Problem solved and they wouldn't have gotten a complaint. that wouldn't excuse the fact that they're bigots, but the couple wouldn't have known they were being discriminated against.

Chicajojobe

Chris, you summed it up perfectly.

Their freedom to run their business according to their religious beliefs does not include the right to practice discrimination. They don't have the right to discriminate against homosexuals any more than they have the right to refuse to take payments and discuss prices/orders with women because their faith says women should be submissive to their husbands.
Jewish deli can't refuse to serve gentiles, a Lebanese or Pakistani restaurant with Muslim owners can't refuse to serve infidels (non-Muslims), a white supremacist who owns a theater can't have separate entrances and seating areas for "whites" and "coloreds"

Plus, all customers have the right to tell the business that they think this is a really shitty practice, and to not buy from them.
If that loses them enough business that they have to close, it has nothing to do with losing their religious freedom, it's the consequence of of standing behind an unpopular decision. That it was a decision made based on religious beliefs is irrelevant.

Zmidponk

BusinessMajor:

Would there be the same hype if the situations were reversed? If a gay baker refused a hetero couple?

Quite possibly.

Honestly, there's more hate and intolerance from the couple than from the bakers

The only intolerance being shown by them is intolerance of intolerance and discrimination.

and businesses do have a right to refuse service for any reason.

BZZZT!! Wrong. There are very large number of reasons a business can refuse service, but there are some a business is specifically not allowed to refuse service on the basis of. In this case, the Oregon Equality Act of 2007 forbids businesses to refuse service on the basis of sexual orientation, race, sex, age, veteran status, disability or religion.

We've all refused to deal with asshole crustys before, this is no different.

Actually, it is. Mainly because 'existing' is not generally considered a valid reason to refuse service to an individual customer, far less a group of them that is large enough to make up a few percentage points of the population of the country you're trying to do business in.

Will we start forcing Jewish delis to serve ham because its discriminatory toward Gentiles?

No, because that's asking a business to introduce an item it wasn't providing previously. Here, the business is simply being expected to not refuse the service it already offers.

Go to a different business and get over yourselves.

If this was a black couple, or interracial couple, would this also be your reaction? If not, why not?

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment